Interesting point on birdshot for HD

Preparedness Depot in Acworth, GA

cbh13

Millennial Supreme
Lifetime Supporter
Aug 26, 2016
1,545
6,522
113
Auburn
Zip code
30011
And what I'm saying is that you have no idea how long your HD shot may be. I can get up to a 15yd shot in my house. If the fight spills outside, which has happened to a lot of folks over the years, it could be further. So why limit yourself to a load that will ONLY work at extremely close ranges.

There are devices made that go on the end of shotgun barrels to greatly increase shot pattern. There are also shells (like Polywad's Spred-R Shells) that greatly open your pattern.
Birdshot is a fucking horrible load for personal defense. If it were so effective at close ranges, wouldn't military or LE units be using it for EQCS? Of course they would, yet NONE do. They use 00 buck and slugs. Why? Because they are PROVEN performers. Proven "on the street" as well as proven in ballistics testing.


Well I've said before I don't suggest the use of birdshot over slugs or buckshot and my own personal shotgun is loaded with #4 buck because I know its a better choice. I just simple stated that the pictures used in the first post are very misleading to the damage bird shot will actually do at close range.
 

cmshoot

Marksman
Jul 12, 2016
1,403
1,710
113
Dallas, GA
Zip code
30132
The reason this used to be the case was the powders being used. Modern smokeless powder does not require 30 inches of bore to achieve maximum velocity, and the shot will not know whether it left a 30 inch barrel of 18 in barrel. The inconsistencies cited in the article have been largely eliminated with modern machining.

I don't buy that. One of the theories is MV. A faster MV forces the shot cup open sooner resulting in a wider pattern. The same shell in a greatly longer barrel has a slower MV, so the cup opens slower. This keeps the shot pattern tighter. I've seen it on slo-mo videos of wad development.

The guys that win shot pattern contests today are running 30"-32" barrels. Not years ago, right now. No one running 21" barrels are winning.
 

Laufen

Beloved flaming retard
Lifetime Supporter
Mar 23, 2015
7,927
6,129
113
I85
Zip code
30030
I don't buy that. One of the theories is MV. A faster MV forces the shot cup open sooner resulting in a wider pattern. The same shell in a greatly longer barrel has a slower MV, so the cup opens slower. This keeps the shot pattern tighter. I've seen it on slo-mo videos of wad development.

The guys that win shot pattern contests today are running 30"-32" barrels. Not years ago, right now. No one running 21" barrels are winning.
So you could accomplish the same thing by reducing your powder charge....extra barrel length isn't required for reducing the speed of the shot.\ The reason for the extra barrel is more precision in aiming, not tightening your pattern. Again, that's all done via chokes.

I don't think you'll find a single reputable source that will claim a longer barrel will tighten your pattern.
 

Laufen

Beloved flaming retard
Lifetime Supporter
Mar 23, 2015
7,927
6,129
113
I85
Zip code
30030
I don't think anyone is advocating the use of birdshot for HD, we're simply refuting the claim that it's a "less lethal" option should you idiotically misidentify your target and shoot a non-threat.
 

cmshoot

Marksman
Jul 12, 2016
1,403
1,710
113
Dallas, GA
Zip code
30132
So you could accomplish the same thing by reducing your powder charge....extra barrel length isn't required for reducing the speed of the shot.\ The reason for the extra barrel is more precision in aiming, not tightening your pattern. Again, that's all done via chokes.

I don't think you'll find a single reputable source that will claim a longer barrel will tighten your pattern.

You are invalidating the argument of pattern sizes and barrel length. In order for the argument to be valid you would have to use the same load in both barrels.

If you had 2 shotgun barrels, identical in every way except for length (one being 21" and the other being 32"), and patterned an identical shotgun shell out of both, the longer barrel would pattern tighter.

The guys that compete in this sort of thing go to extremes to get the tightest patterns possible. They look at every single aspect of the barrel, gun, and the load being used. With that being said, 100% of the guys winning are using barrels longer than what us hunters typically use, usually 30"-32". If shorter barrels produced tighter patterns the winners would all be using shorter barrels. They ain't.

That's as reputable as you can get; the guys that do it for prize money and win consistently are using longer barrels.

The custom makers, like SumToy Customs that have made numerous winning barrels, recommend long barrels. How's that for reputable?
 

cmshoot

Marksman
Jul 12, 2016
1,403
1,710
113
Dallas, GA
Zip code
30132
I don't think anyone is advocating the use of birdshot for HD, we're simply refuting the claim that it's a "less lethal" option should you idiotically misidentify your target and shoot a non-threat.

The guy quoted in the article in the OP advocated it for HD use, albeit for a stupid fuckin' reason.
 

Laufen

Beloved flaming retard
Lifetime Supporter
Mar 23, 2015
7,927
6,129
113
I85
Zip code
30030
You are invalidating the argument of pattern sizes and barrel length. In order for the argument to be valid you would have to use the same load in both barrels.

If you had 2 shotgun barrels, identical in every way except for length (one being 21" and the other being 32"), and patterned an identical shotgun shell out of both, the longer barrel would pattern tighter.

The guys that compete in this sort of thing go to extremes to get the tightest patterns possible. They look at every single aspect of the barrel, gun, and the load being used. With that being said, 100% of the guys winning are using barrels longer than what us hunters typically use, usually 30"-32". If shorter barrels produced tighter patterns the winners woudl all by using shorter barrels. They ain't.

That's as reputable as you can get; the guys that do it for prize money and win consistently are using longer barrels.

The custom makers, like SumToy Customs that have made numerous winning barrels, recommend long barrels. How's that for reputable?
Again, the long barrels are being used because they provide a more precise platform for aiming.

How is it that the pellets would be able to know which length of barrel they've slid from, and behave differently based on that knowledge. It simply doesn't matter with respect to pattern density.
 

Laufen

Beloved flaming retard
Lifetime Supporter
Mar 23, 2015
7,927
6,129
113
I85
Zip code
30030
The guy quoted in the article in the OP advocated it for HD use, albeit for a stupid fuckin' reason.
Right, but nobody here is.. I'm simply saying that at close range it can be a motherfucker on a living target.
 

cmshoot

Marksman
Jul 12, 2016
1,403
1,710
113
Dallas, GA
Zip code
30132
Again, the long barrels are being used because they provide a more precise platform for aiming.

How is it that the pellets would be able to know which length of barrel they've slid from, and behave differently based on that knowledge. It simply doesn't matter with respect to pattern density.

No, they are not being used for aiming. The competitors in question all use receiver-mounted red dot sights, so no sight radius is involved. The shotguns are shot from a stable rest, so they aren't using the longer barrel to aid in swing/follow-through.

I explained one theory already. In an extremely long barrel the shot exits the barrel at a slower MV.

Slower MV = shot cup stays closed longer

Shot cup closed longer = holds shot together longer

Shot is held together longer = tighter groups

I ain't making this shit up. I'm relying on knowledge and experience of the folks that do this for a living, as well as what is putting men in the winner's circle.
 

Laufen

Beloved flaming retard
Lifetime Supporter
Mar 23, 2015
7,927
6,129
113
I85
Zip code
30030
You are invalidating the argument of pattern sizes and barrel length. In order for the argument to be valid you would have to use the same load in both barrels.

If you had 2 shotgun barrels, identical in every way except for length (one being 21" and the other being 32"), and patterned an identical shotgun shell out of both, the longer barrel would pattern tighter.

The guys that compete in this sort of thing go to extremes to get the tightest patterns possible. They look at every single aspect of the barrel, gun, and the load being used. With that being said, 100% of the guys winning are using barrels longer than what us hunters typically use, usually 30"-32". If shorter barrels produced tighter patterns the winners would all be using shorter barrels. They ain't.

That's as reputable as you can get; the guys that do it for prize money and win consistently are using longer barrels.

The custom makers, like SumToy Customs that have made numerous winning barrels, recommend long barrels. How's that for reputable?
There are a thousand articles out there like this, also I've done these types of tests informally myself when training at the Eagle Bluff Firearms training class put on by the company I worked for in the early 2000's.

The things that matter if you want a tight pattern: Extended chokes, lengthened forcing cone, and a back bored barrel.


https://shotgunreport.com/2012/06/05/effects-of-barrel-length/
 

Laufen

Beloved flaming retard
Lifetime Supporter
Mar 23, 2015
7,927
6,129
113
I85
Zip code
30030
No, they are not being used for aiming. The competitors in question all use receiver-mounted red dot sights, so no sight radius is involved. The shotguns are shot from a stable rest, so they aren't using the longer barrel to aid in swing/follow-through.

I explained one theory already. In an extremely long barrel the shot exits the barrel at a slower MV.

Slower MV = shot cup stays closed longer

Shot cup closed longer = holds shot together longer

Shot is held together longer = tighter groups

I ain't making this shit up. I'm relying on knowledge and experience of the folks that do this for a living, as well as what is putting men in the winner's circle.
So you're saying the function the long barrel is performing is slowing the shot.
 

cmshoot

Marksman
Jul 12, 2016
1,403
1,710
113
Dallas, GA
Zip code
30132
There are a thousand articles out there like this, also I've done these types of tests informally myself when training at the Eagle Bluff Firearms training class put on by the company I worked for in the early 2000's.

The things that matter if you want a tight pattern: Extended chokes, lengthened forcing cone, and a back bored barrel.


https://shotgunreport.com/2012/06/05/effects-of-barrel-length/

I agreed with you. I stated numerous times that the most important factors in tight patterns are chokes, forcing cones, and backboring. Why else would I pay good money to have my personal barrels all backbored and the forcing cones lengthened.

But........

If you have 2 barrels, one 22" and the other 32", and all the same custom work has been done to both of them, the 32" barrel will pattern tighter.

If only the shorter barrel has the custom work done, then the shorter barrel will pattern tighter. I agreed to this earlier. I stated earlier that my 14" Rem870 will pattern tighter than a standard 28" barrel, due to the fact of my choke, backboring, and lengthened forcing cones.
 

Laufen

Beloved flaming retard
Lifetime Supporter
Mar 23, 2015
7,927
6,129
113
I85
Zip code
30030
If you have 2 barrels, one 22" and the other 32", and all the same custom work has been done to both of them, the 32" barrel will pattern tighter.
There is zero mechanical reason this would be true.
 

cmshoot

Marksman
Jul 12, 2016
1,403
1,710
113
Dallas, GA
Zip code
30132
So you're saying the function the long barrel is performing is slowing the shot.

Nope, I never once said that. It's a slight byproduct of a lengthened barrel. The purpose of a lengthened shotgun barrel in a hunting shotgun is to aid in swing/follow-through, which I also stated earlier.

As to why the guys that shoot competitively for the tightest possible shot patterns use longer barrels, I'm not 100% sure. MV is one of my theories. I don't do that sort of competition, although I've seen it done and talked to custom shops like SumToy. The subject of why they use longer barrels never came up.
 

Laufen

Beloved flaming retard
Lifetime Supporter
Mar 23, 2015
7,927
6,129
113
I85
Zip code
30030
Nope, I never once said that. It's a slight byproduct of a lengthened barrel. The purpose of a lengthened shotgun barrel in a hunting shotgun is to aid in swing/follow-through, which I also stated earlier.

As to why the guys that shoot competitively for the tightest possible shot patterns use longer barrels, I'm not 100% sure. MV is one of my theories. I don't do that sort of competition, although I've seen it done and talked to custom shops like SumToy. The subject of why they use longer barrels never came up.
Then what happens to the shot in the longer barrel? How does it know from which length barrel it slid?
 

cmshoot

Marksman
Jul 12, 2016
1,403
1,710
113
Dallas, GA
Zip code
30132
There is zero mechanical reason this would be true.

The guys that shoot shotguns competitively to achieve the tightest possible shot patterns are all, 100% using barrels of the 30"-32" length. That's all the proof I need. If shorter brrels produced tighter patterns then winners would use shorter barrels. In fact, it's only the losers in this sport that are using short barrels.
 

Laufen

Beloved flaming retard
Lifetime Supporter
Mar 23, 2015
7,927
6,129
113
I85
Zip code
30030
The guys that shoot shotguns competitively to achieve the tightest possible shot patterns are all, 100% using barrels of the 30"-32" length. That's all the proof I need. If shorter brrels produced tighter patterns then winners would use shorter barrels. In fact, it's only the losers in this sport that are using short barrels.
If you can't provide a single reason outside of some unknown, amorphous black magic, then that isn't proof.
 

cmshoot

Marksman
Jul 12, 2016
1,403
1,710
113
Dallas, GA
Zip code
30132
Then what happens to the shot in the longer barrel? How does it know from which length barrel it slid?

It doesn't. But it is slower. Have I not explained this several times already?

Slower MV = shot cups stays together longer = shot stays together in the cup longer from exiting the barrel = shot stays together longer = tighter patterns.
 

Laufen

Beloved flaming retard
Lifetime Supporter
Mar 23, 2015
7,927
6,129
113
I85
Zip code
30030
It doesn't. But it is slower. Have I not explained this several times already?

Slower MV = shot cups stays together longer = shot stays together in the cup longer from exiting the barrel = shot stays together longer = tighter patterns.
So again, you're saying the speed of the shot cup (not the length of the barrel) is the difference. Or are you saying ( you said you didn't) that the extra length barrel is slowing the speed of the shot cup, thus tightening pattern?