One of my favorite BS home defense phrases. I worked plenty of calls where folks missed with a shotgun, and hunters miss all the time.
Interesting point on birdshot for HD
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One of my favorite BS home defense phrases. I worked plenty of calls where folks missed with a shotgun, and hunters miss all the time.
I'd imagine its pretty close to that, the only way I'd think it would maybe spread out as far as it is in the pictures in a house would be if it was fired from a judge. I would suspect those open up pretty damn fast
hell yah! no need to aim when they'll run off with just the sound of you racking it right? lol
The rate that a shot pattern spreads depends on numerous factors:
-barrel length
-choke
-shot hardness
-velocity of load
-length of forcing cone
-shot cup material/design
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Yep, most do not understand the pattern when shooting a shotgun as you posted ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
correct but at these distances all factors become less and less thus why I'd say the only way to get that kinda spread close distance would be with the shortest barrel possible
The issue is still that each small pellet doesn't have the mass to adequately penetrate. You'll end up with a nasty looking wound but the chances of quick incapacitation is low because the chances of causing enough damage to the CNS or a major blood vessel is lower.
Yeah and the fact that it doesn't spread nearly as much as most people think. Seems pretty useless to me.
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Not necessarily. With all other factors being equal a longer barrel will pattern tighter. But if the longer barrel is IC choked and of a standard variety, a shorter barrel with a tighter choke and lengthened forcing cone will pattern tighter.
I have a SBS Remington/Wilson Combat 870 with a 14" barrel, factory Modified fixed choke. I had Vang Comp backbore it and lengthen the forcing cone. With my chosen 00 buck load (Federal Reduced Recoil 2 3/4" LE load) it will hold an 8" pattern at 25yds. Patterns so tight at close range that during training scenarios it is capable of "hostage rescue" shots at 7 yards.
An over-the-counter 28" barrel will not do as well.
but this would be looking at the opposite effect. There aren't devises you can add onto a barrel to increase the spread. I was simply saying that if your looking at HD distances there is no way for a standard shotgun to create a spread that wide using any kind of load unless maybe it was coming out of something like a 2" judge, only then could I see it opening up that much in such a short distnace.
Why would pattern density be determined by barrel length? Once the pellets exit the barrel, they don't know if they've slid out of an 18" barrel or a 36 inch barrel. Chokes determine pattern density, that's why you'll see a lot of modern turkey specific shotguns with 21" barrels. Enough to get max velocity, be short enough to be handy and easy to hold on target for an extended time, and patterns aren't affected in any way by the shorter barrel.
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Go to someone's website like Sum Toy Custom. They build competition shotguns where folks compete to get the tightest pattern possible. The guys that are winning are using long barrels.
And what I'm saying is that you have no idea how long your HD shot may be. I can get up to a 15yd shot in my house. If the fight spills outside, which has happened to a lot of folks over the years, it could be further. So why limit yourself to a load that will ONLY work at extremely close ranges.
There are devices made that go on the end of shotgun barrels to greatly increase shot pattern. There are also shells (like Polywad's Spred-R Shells) that greatly open your pattern.
Birdshot is a fucking horrible load for personal defense. If it were so effective at close ranges, wouldn't military or LE units be using it for EQCS? Of course they would, yet NONE do. They use 00 buck and slugs. Why? Because they are PROVEN performers. Proven "on the street" as well as proven in ballistics testing.
I can't answer that because I don't know how or why, but I do have a theory. All I can go by factually is experience and shooting hundreds of shotguns.
But since I know how to use Google, here's a quote from a custom gunsmith that makes custom shotgun barrels.
"Speaking from a long experience working with shotgun barrels, certain circumstances prove that barrel length has an effect on pattern density and dispersal.
Turkey hunting and turkey match shooting where maximum density patterns are desired will, when all else is equivalent, tend to group more tightly with a longer barrel such as 30" vs. 20".
The 20" barrel is much more maneuverable for hunting and is a typically better choice for turkey hunting as an example.
I work at making those short barrels pattern very tightly for hunters so they can get performance more like a long barrel in a short barrel. That has more to do with the quality and precision of the work and if done to a longer barrel, would likely outperform the shorter barrel. See how many short barrels you see at the patterning contests; some have had to place barrel length limits on shooters to keep the longest barrels out and make the contest practical, the same way that many racing styles have engine size limits to keep the field more level. The proof that precision and talent mean a lot can be seen in the winning performance of certain racing teams, since all must play within the same limitations- but a few are always a bit faster with the same size components.
Shorter barrels may need a slightly tighter amount of choke to get equivalent results of a longer barrel due to the shot spread effect from the muzzle pressure that naturally drops as length increases. I believe it was the Churchill XXV that they said used a bit more choke to pattern the same as the 30" barreled versions.
It is true that most times the pattern, velocity, and hitting power will be little changed by modest barrel length differences, but can be radically different due to quality of bore contours, finish, choke alignment, and the details that make a fine barrel different from an economy barrel. However, shotguns being a fickle servant, we may sometimes find that what was considered likely a plow horse wins the triple crown in pattern density at long range. Thus is the nature of the beast- that no small sample comparison will ever show much to be able to conclude with certainty about most analyzed details. Some details will require much more exposure than anecdotal levels to reduce an uncertainty factor."
So, like I said, factors like bore quality, lengthened forcing cones, backboring, etc., are more important than barrel length when it comes to patterning (hence the example I gave of my 14" Rem870), barrel length can be a factor.
The reason this used to be the case was the powders being used. Modern smokeless powder does not require 30 inches of bore to achieve maximum velocity, and the shot will not know whether it left a 30 inch barrel of 18 in barrel. The inconsistencies cited in the article have been largely eliminated with modern machining.