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9mm, Glock or M&P?


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    20

Shemp

Boomerwaffen Fuddmander
Kalash Klub
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The last G19 I had was pitiful. I had decided to give it another go with Glock. Bought a new G19 and decked it out with all my favorite parts. Basically an LAV edition, before there was an LAV edition, with a "-" connector. I was excited, because it seemed perfect to me! But it quickly started showing problems. Failure to eject, brass to the face, etc. It threw brass directly to the 6 o'clock, so hard that it drew blood on my forehead. I left the range one day with four bleeding cuts and a pile of frustration. It also shot high, no matter what I did. I like my sights set up to either "shoot the dot" or impact on the top edge of the front sight blade. The G19 shot 2" over the front sight.

I had to take a day off work to drive to Smyrna. They replaced every small part in the slide. The real issue was the extractor. But by replacing everything, they could avoid admitting what the real problem was. I specifically asked them what was wrong and they basically dodged the question. This is what I like to refer to as waving the magic Glock wand. Fix the issue quietly and don't admit to a problem. The replacement extractor was clearly of a different design.

Part of the reason people love them is because they are accessible. And as a result, they've built a reputation for great service. But that's only true if you live here or if you participate in GSSF. Shipping a gun in to them is a different story. And I've heard both good and bad stories from guys in other states.

But they did in fact fix my gun. Good extraction & ejection. Unfortunately, by that point, my opinion of the gun had soured and the POI was still high. I ended up selling it to a guy out of state. He still has it, 4 years later. He shoots alot and he's still very happy with it.

Glock will probably be the king of defensive handguns for a long time. Partly due to an earned reputation, partly due to marketing and public perception and partly due to their dominance of the LE market. And the M&P will always play second fiddle to an extent for many of the same reasons. Not because it's a lesser gun, but because it's not what everyone else shoots.

And the M&P did have some early teething issues, like the dead trigger problem and erratic accuracy. The dead trigger was fixed years ago with a spring change. The accuracy issue improved with a couple of barrel redesigns. And the trigger has improved significantly over the course of several design changes. But we all know how hard it is to overcome old reputations in the gun industry. For someone who is starting from scratch, try them both and pick the one that works best for you. Because it's kind of hard to go wrong with either.

Thank you for providing such excellent and thorough responses...they are helpful to me and anyone that might stumble on to this thread through google.

On that G19...did your mods have anything to do with the problem or was it entirely an extractor issue?
 

freedom

Sniper
Mar 25, 2015
1,522
885
113
Covington, Ga
Zip code
30014
The last G19 I had was pitiful. I had decided to give it another go with Glock. Bought a new G19 and decked it out with all my favorite parts. Basically an LAV edition, before there was an LAV edition, with a "-" connector. I was excited, because it seemed perfect to me! But it quickly started showing problems. Failure to eject, brass to the face, etc. It threw brass directly to the 6 o'clock, so hard that it drew blood on my forehead. I left the range one day with four bleeding cuts and a pile of frustration. It also shot high, no matter what I did. I like my sights set up to either "shoot the dot" or impact on the top edge of the front sight blade. The G19 shot 2" over the front sight.

I had to take a day off work to drive to Smyrna. They replaced every small part in the slide. The real issue was the extractor. But by replacing everything, they could avoid admitting what the real problem was. I specifically asked them what was wrong and they basically dodged the question. This is what I like to refer to as waving the magic Glock wand. Fix the issue quietly and don't admit to a problem. The replacement extractor was clearly of a different design.

Part of the reason people love them is because they are accessible. And as a result, they've built a reputation for great service. But that's only true if you live here or if you participate in GSSF. Shipping a gun in to them is a different story. And I've heard both good and bad stories from guys in other states.

But they did in fact fix my gun. Good extraction & ejection. Unfortunately, by that point, my opinion of the gun had soured and the POI was still high. I ended up selling it to a guy out of state. He still has it, 4 years later. He shoots alot and he's still very happy with it.

Glock will probably be the king of defensive handguns for a long time. Partly due to an earned reputation, partly due to marketing and public perception and partly due to their dominance of the LE market. And the M&P will always play second fiddle to an extent for many of the same reasons. Not because it's a lesser gun, but because it's not what everyone else shoots.

And the M&P did have some early teething issues, like the dead trigger problem and erratic accuracy. The dead trigger was fixed years ago with a spring change. The accuracy issue improved with a couple of barrel redesigns. And the trigger has improved significantly over the course of several design changes. But we all know how hard it is to overcome old reputations in the gun industry. For someone who is starting from scratch, try them both and pick the one that works best for you. Because it's kind of hard to go wrong with either.

My gen4 19, had the newer recoil spring but some of the brass would land on the brim of my hat. The new extractor fixed it too. They are good, but perfection isn't in the same ballpark. I'm really happy with it now, but I almost sold it before the armorers at the match fixed it, the same time they replaced the slide stop. I had forgot about that problem.
 

DarthVader

Marksman
Mar 25, 2015
1,175
390
113
Henry County
Zip code
30253
Thank you for providing such excellent and thorough responses...they are helpful to me and anyone that might stumble on to this thread through google.

On that G19...did your mods have anything to do with the problem or was it entirely an extractor issue?
No. The only mods were the installation of a factory "-" connector, a tangodown slide stop and Heinie Straight Eight night sights. All pretty tame and none affect extraction or ejection. Just minor improvements to get it "just right".
 

DarthVader

Marksman
Mar 25, 2015
1,175
390
113
Henry County
Zip code
30253
My gen4 19, had the newer recoil spring but some of the brass would land on the brim of my hat. The new extractor fixed it too. They are good, but perfection isn't in the same ballpark. I'm really happy with it now, but I almost sold it before the armorers at the match fixed it, the same time they replaced the slide stop. I had forgot about that problem.
Seems like they have a recurring issue with extractor batches. But it's a simple fix. And their guys in the field at GSSF shoots help a ton of people.
 
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freedom

Sniper
Mar 25, 2015
1,522
885
113
Covington, Ga
Zip code
30014
No. The only mods were the installation of a factory "-" connector, a tangodown slide stop and Heinie Straight Eight night sights. All pretty tame and none affect extraction or ejection. Just minor improvements to get it "just right".

The factory sights and the heinies were both shooting high?
 

Kobayashi

Frontiersman
Mar 25, 2015
412
318
113
Ola
My gen4 19, had the newer recoil spring but some of the brass would land on the brim of my hat. The new extractor fixed it too. They are good, but perfection isn't in the same ballpark. I'm really happy with it now, but I almost sold it before the armorers at the match fixed it, the same time they replaced the slide stop. I had forgot about that problem.
This is the key reason to look for a Gen 2 or early Gen 3 G19. The original extractor is a machined part and doesn't have these issues. Buy one of these and replace ONLY the springs as needed.
 
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FatAlbert

Cerakote applicator, PM for quotes.
Kalash Klub
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Yeah I figured it would be like this. The vibe I'm getting is that Glock is the most popular because it's been around longer so most people already have and are invested in Glock.
Not me man, i did everything I could to hate glocks for years. Sold traded and bought many pistols. I was once heavily invested in an HK. I finally tried out a 19 just to prove to myself what a piece of shit it was and here I am 3years later singing it's praise. Really I still hate every single Glock besides the 19, none of the rest of them fit me right.
 
Last edited:

DarthVader

Marksman
Mar 25, 2015
1,175
390
113
Henry County
Zip code
30253
How does that work? Milling issue for the rear sight dovetail? Barrel/slide issue?
Accuracy issues of varying types are pretty common with M&Ps and Glocks. But they manifest in different manners. The Glock often groups adequately, but doesn't shoot to POA for a lot of folks. The M&P accuracy can go to poop out past 15 yards, especially with older guns.

From what I've read on the subject. The primary culprit is the loose tolerances that in part make these guns so reliable. Primarily the slide to barrel hood fit. A loose fit, decreases the lock time, essentially the amount of time the barrel stays in battery during recoil. An M&P barrel will almost immediately start to drop out of battery the instant the slide begins rearward motion. Some Glocks do as well. A tighter fit, improves accuracy and can affect POI. Apex did some slow motion videos a couple of years ago to demonstrate the concept. I'll see if I can dig them up.

ETA: can't find it. But it's easily demonstrated. With some pistols, the barrel almost immediately starts downward motion. With a hand fit barrel, that allows no forward or rearward motion when dropped into the slide, once assembled the barrel can have up to 1/8" rearward motion before starting to drop out of battery. It's all about timing and fractions of second, while the bullet exits the muzzle.
 
Last edited:

freedom

Sniper
Mar 25, 2015
1,522
885
113
Covington, Ga
Zip code
30014
Accuracy issues of varying types are pretty common with M&Ps and Glocks. But they manifest in different manners. The Glock often groups adequately, but doesn't shoot to POA for a lot of folks. The M&P accuracy can go to poop out past 15 yards, especially with older guns.

From what I've read on the subject. The primary culprit is the loose tolerances that in part make these guns so reliable. Primarily the slide to barrel hood fit. A loose fit, decreases the lock time, essentially the amount of time the barrel stays in battery during recoil. An M&P barrel will almost immediately start to drop out of battery the instant the slide begins rearward motion. Some Glocks do as well. A tighter fit, improves accuracy and can affect POI. Apex did some slow motion videos a couple of years ago to demonstrate the concept. I'll see if I can dig them up.

ETA: can't find it. But it's easily demonstrated. With some pistols, the barrel almost immediately starts downward motion. With a hand fit barrel, that allows no forward or rearward motion when dropped into the slide, once assembled the barrel can have up to 1/8" rearward motion before starting to drop out of battery. It's all about timing and fractions of second, while the bullet exits the muzzle.

Got you. I can visualise how that could happen.
 
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DarthVader

Marksman
Mar 25, 2015
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Really....that's interesting. Aren't you a die hard M&P guy?
I'm not a die hard. It just works well for me. I don't have anything against Glock at all. But alot of folks I talk to want that one gun that can do everything. A lot of times, that's a G19. Now if they just have to have a manual safety, the M&P offers that option. If they want an alloy frame, probably a Sig. Usually I try to take them shooting, let them shoot guns side by side and make up their own minds. I'd rather not tell someone what they need, but instead, let them decide. Now with that being said, of the ones that go shoot with me and make a side by side comparison, more buy an M&P. Sometimes both a fullsize and compact. But often, people just can't get past their preconceived notions. They go into it thinking they want a Glock because it's recognized or because someone else told them they should. I'll show them their options, but I'm not going to make a case one way or the other. It's up to them to decide, not me.