AR15 Armorer

Howard Law

fyroc

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Mar 25, 2015
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I'm not sure if you guys would know the answer to this, but it is something that seems pretty interesting to me. I decided against starting the firearms accessories online store because the amount of competition and such. After seeing the AR15 Armorer courses being posting... I'm curious of what can actually be done with the certificate? Can I start a business that replaces parts and build AR15s or does that require a gunsmith license and an FFL?
 

Cudruln

Turning dollars into pennies.
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That would be a interesting. I could definitely see a market for this, like a AR boutique. I bet if you even kept a good stash of aftermarket parts on hand you could have a decent business for local sales. I know I have a extremely hard time finding parts and accessories local, I always have to order and I am not very patient.
 

DoglegArms

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There is no gunsmith license unless your state requires licensing. You don't need a FFL for gunsmithing but I imagine it's difficult unless you're working with a FFL holder. What I do is offer gunsmithing services but I take it to another shop who does it (I hate working on guns). You could be that person? IMO get a FFL, it's no big deal. An 01 FFL (dealer) is $200 for 3 years then $90 to renew for every 3 years.

But if you're in Paulding County, GA a FFL is very difficult to get. It's not worth it.
 

DarthVader

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I'm not sure if you guys would know the answer to this, but it is something that seems pretty interesting to me. I decided against starting the firearms accessories online store because the amount of competition and such. After seeing the AR15 Armorer courses being posting... I'm curious of what can actually be done with the certificate? Can I start a business that replaces parts and build AR15s or does that require a gunsmith license and an FFL?
Unless you're going to hold an FFL, that would allow you to take in and hold other people's guns, I don't see a way to make a living or even a decent side income from it. I've thought about it many times. The hard truth is people are too cheap to pay for quality, unless it's a factory gun. And the constant comparison to low end, inexpensive AR's would be exhausting. I've been certified for three years and I'm about to recertify. Mainly because I enjoy working on them, building them and fixing other people's mistakes. But I do it for friends at no charge. You could build the best guns in the business and folks would just say they could do the same thing for less money, with a pair of vice grips and a pipe wrench.
 

DarthVader

Marksman
Mar 25, 2015
1,175
390
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Henry County
Zip code
30253
There is no gunsmith license unless your state requires licensing. You don't need a FFL for gunsmithing but I imagine it's difficult unless you're working with a FFL holder. What I do is offer gunsmithing services but I take it to another shop who does it (I hate working on guns). You could be that person? IMO get a FFL, it's no big deal. An 01 FFL (dealer) is $200 for 3 years then $90 to renew for every 3 years.

But if you're in Paulding County, GA a FFL is very difficult to get. It's not worth it.

Hmmmm... maybe?
 

DarthVader

Marksman
Mar 25, 2015
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I was just kidding, I'm in Paulding County.
Yeah, I knew it wasn't really feasible. But it's an interesting idea.

Oddly enough, gun shops are the least interested in the armorers course. Response is the same almost every time. They don't think they need it, because they already know all there is to know. Or at least they think they do. I haven't spoken to one yet that had any formal training or was certified by a manufacturer. I'd be willing to bet that more than 90% of the guys getting paid to work on AR's in the metro area have zero formal training. And I've seen some hack jobs done by supposed "professionals" who don't see the value in a class like the one I'm hosting. The majority of guys wrenching on guns around here are simply "builders" and not very good ones, at that. (Not directed at whomever does your work) Just a recent observation.
 

NWS

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Yeah, I knew it wasn't really feasible. But it's an interesting idea.

Oddly enough, gun shops are the least interested in the armorers course. Response is the same almost every time. They don't think they need it, because they already know all there is to know. Or at least they think they do. I haven't spoken to one yet that had any formal training or was certified by a manufacturer. I'd be willing to bet that more than 90% of the guys getting paid to work on AR's in the metro area have zero formal training. And I've seen some hack jobs done by supposed "professionals" who don't see the value in a class like the one I'm hosting. The majority of guys wrenching on guns around here are simply "builders" and not very good ones, at that. (Not directed at whomever does your work) Just a recent observation.
:boxing:
 

Wallace

Tracker
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. You could build the best guns in the business and folks would just say they could do the same thing for less money, with a pair of vice grips and a pipe wrench.
:pound:

I am no expert on AR's by any means, but you are spot on here.

One of my workers knew I was into guns and knew I tinkered with AR's. He told me about starting a build and I really tried to get him to let me help walk him through the 1st one. I offered to let him use my tools, supplies and would let him do the actual build, just wanted to walk him through it to make sure it worked correctly.

Well, he didn't. He said he watched plenty of YouTube videos on it and knew how. I got pics of it though. Flash hider has no crush washer and tightened up upside down, bolt catch roll pin is only 2/3 of the way installed with idiot marks on the receiver, sights on backwards, and no staking of the castle nut. Not only that, he installed the barrel without a torque wrench, so its hit or miss if its installed at the min 35 ft/lb or not. :pout:

I get the same frustration with this kind of stuff when people ask me about what car they should buy (I use to sell them and buy and sell alot on the side). Then they turn up in some piece of shit Dodge Journey and wonder why the car is in for warranty work so much. I digress...
 

fyroc

Developer
Mar 25, 2015
482
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Philadelphia
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:pound:

I am no expert on AR's by any means, but you are spot on here.

One of my workers knew I was into guns and knew I tinkered with AR's. He told me about starting a build and I really tried to get him to let me help walk him through the 1st one. I offered to let him use my tools, supplies and would let him do the actual build, just wanted to walk him through it to make sure it worked correctly.

Well, he didn't. He said he watched plenty of YouTube videos on it and knew how. I got pics of it though. Flash hider has no crush washer and tightened up upside down, bolt catch roll pin is only 2/3 of the way installed with idiot marks on the receiver, sights on backwards, and no staking of the castle nut. Not only that, he installed the barrel without a torque wrench, so its hit or miss if its installed at the min 35 ft/lb or not. :pout:

I get the same frustration with this kind of stuff when people ask me about what car they should buy (I use to sell them and buy and sell alot on the side). Then they turn up in some piece of shit Dodge Journey and wonder why the car is in for warranty work so much. I digress...

There is a trick to install the barrel without a torque wrench... but I doubt he knew the "trick".
 

fyroc

Developer
Mar 25, 2015
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What is the "trick"? Calibrated elbow?

Ha no. Hand tighten then just tighten until you are able to line up the gas tube. The range is 30 - 80 foot pounds. You don't really "need" a torque wrench for such of a wide range. It's a good practice to use a torque wrench... but if you don't have one it's no sweat.
 

DarthVader

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Mar 25, 2015
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Ha no. Hand tighten then just tighten until you are able to line up the gas tube. The range is 30 - 80 foot pounds. You don't really "need" a torque wrench for such of a wide range. It's a good practice to use a torque wrench... but if you don't have one it's no sweat.
Gotcha. The newer designs, that don't require gas tube alignment are super simple. But I've seen one or two USGI barrel nuts over the last few years that would not align within the torque range. At that point, you've got to swap it out and try a different one. And with one like that, you have to use a torque wrench so you know where you are within the range.

Removing one that was installed without a wrench can be extremely difficult and even damage the receiver, if the assembler just kept on cranking until the teeth lined up.
 

Wallace

Tracker
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Ha no. Hand tighten then just tighten until you are able to line up the gas tube. The range is 30 - 80 foot pounds. You don't really "need" a torque wrench for such of a wide range. It's a good practice to use a torque wrench... but if you don't have one it's no sweat.
I do not agree with this. You would have to assume the barrel nut alignment is such to require that torque to make the alignment which differs from part to part. Those type of tightening procedures work only if you have a reference to work from (like the shimming procedure for installing a URX4 as example). I say this as there have been times I have gotten the nut aligned on the first try, and other that required some facing of the receiver and close to 80 ft/lbs to get aligned. If not, little effort past hand tight would "align" the nut, but with under 30ft/lbs of force. Torque wrenches (quality calibrated ones that is) ensure the user is in the specified range. My perception of 35 ft/lbs and someone else's will vary a lot. I find many new builders do not realize that 80 ft/lbs takes such an effort to get too and they perceive 35ft/lbs as much lighter than they should too.

Yes, after you do a few you can feel when you are in the ballpark, that said, I still use a torque wrench.
 
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DarthVader

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Mar 25, 2015
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Henry County
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I do not agree with this. You would have to assume the barrel nut alignment is such to require that torque to make the alignment which differs from part to part. Those type of tightening procedures work only if you have a reference to work from (like the shimming procedure for installing a URX4 as example). I say this as there have been times I have gotten the nut aligned on the first try, and other that required some facing of the receiver and close to 80 ft/lbs to get aligned. If not, little effort past hand tight would "align" the nut, but with under 30ft/lbs of force. Torque wrenches (quality calibrated ones that is) ensure the user is in the specified range. My perception of 35 ft/lbs and someone else's will vary a lot. I find many new builders do not realize that 80 ft/lbs takes such an effort to get too and they perceive 35ft/lbs as much lighter than they should too.

Yes, after you do a few you can feel when you are in the ballpark, that said, I still use a torque wrench.
Well said.

Why aren't you coming to the class in April? It would be right up your alley.
 

fyroc

Developer
Mar 25, 2015
482
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Philadelphia
Zip code
19130
I do not agree with this. You would have to assume the barrel nut alignment is such to require that torque to make the alignment which differs from part to part. Those type of tightening procedures work only if you have a reference to work from (like the shimming procedure for installing a URX4 as example). I say this as there have been times I have gotten the nut aligned on the first try, and other that required some facing of the receiver and close to 80 ft/lbs to get aligned. If not, little effort past hand tight would "align" the nut, but with under 30ft/lbs of force. Torque wrenches (quality calibrated ones that is) ensure the user is in the specified range. My perception of 35 ft/lbs and someone else's will vary a lot. I find many new builders do not realize that 80 ft/lbs takes such an effort to get too and they perceive 35ft/lbs as much lighter than they should too.

Yes, after you do a few you can feel when you are in the ballpark, that said, I still use a torque wrench.

I don't know. I guess if you have one, why not use it? I personally use one but I also know what 30 - 80 foot pounds feels like. I guess if someone who has only built one or 2 and isn't very mechanically inclined I wouldn't trust them without a torque wrench... but someone who has done a few and is.. I would trust them.

What wrench do you guys use?
 

NWS

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<~~~~~~~~~Never in his life used a torque wrench to install a barrel. :peep:
 
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